Phone Session – Transcript

Stuart: I’d like to read something to you. I call this “The Human Conundrum”. Thoughts presume a thinker and the thinker assumes an identity. So start with that. Thoughts presume a thinker. A thinker assumes an identity. The thoughts presume that you are the thinker and so even you try to say “I must stop the thoughts,” but that’s assuming that the thoughts make you the thinker and the thinker is this person. That’s why when you’re in meditation, the identity isn’t assumed. The formlessness is in the forefront. But when the identity is solid then solidness needs protection and there’s really an awareness that you can’t protect it. You just can’t. So there’s a great deal of fear of not existing.

H: So surrender is the only way.

Stuart: I would say yes, but I would also say that who comes before the thinker? Who comes before the identity? I would say you realize that no thing is real. No thought is real, no person is real, no situation is real. What comes before it?

H: Yes, it’s all fleeting appearances.

Stuart: Yes, and that includes my body, my tendencies, my fears, my neuroses; all of it is attached to my identity and I am not which comes before.

H: When I recognized, or I agreed with what you said, the anxiety increased. The sensation in the abdomen increased at the thought of its annihilation, but then as I said what I said to you right now, it shifted and it relaxed.

Stuart: Why did it relax? Because the truth penetrates it, but as long as the identity is looking for resolution and it’s believed to be you, it’s in control and it will take you on a rollercoaster. The mind is looking for resolution and it forbids it. Once you identify as this person, the mind is always trying to keep you locked into this person. It’s endless.

H: You know, there was something you said, that the moment you said it, it was very very powerfully heard. It was recognizing what’s true, that is the only hope that there is, the only chance that anybody has of freedom or end of suffering, of happiness, is being the truth, is with the truth.

Stuart: And not trying to change the person, and not trying to stop the thoughts, but knowing that you are not the thinker. I am not the thinker, I am not the fear, but with the history of identification, we believe so.

H: So there is this momentum, but the momentum is not me, it’s just what it is.

Stuart: It is here, seeing, feeling it. There is an awareness of more of the knowingness of fear, of things not going the way that this form can’t tolerate, for whatever reason, it just can’t be that way for this person. It’s just too much to bear. You can’t take it. It’s not like it’s wrong, it’s not like it has to be different, it’s just that the system can’t tolerate it, it just can’t.

H: It’s like a bridge that can only carry so much weight.

Stuart: That’s right, and one more vehicle over it and the whole thing will collapse. And that’s the way the forms are. Some forms can tolerate great, great stress, and others, the slightest bit, just can’t. I think we have this homogenous, pasteurized way of treating life in our society where there’s this norm that everybody’s supposed to accept. There should be no difference. We’re like China in more ways than we know. We like to homogenize and everybody likes to fit in and be normal. We’re trained with training cards. Here’s the flip chart, a picture of a car and a car, then we don’t really see the car, just know it’s a car, it’s all in the head. And if you’re in the head then the person is very, very real, and the person knows a lot, but it doesn’t know itself.

H: The person is real to itself, to the person, and in that way there’s no attention or room for the person to see outside itself. Stuart: Or, how about inside? So what does it feel like to know yourself as something formless? H: It’s light, it’s easy, there are no problems, it’s simple.

Stuart: Isn’t it? Light, easy, and simple. Beautiful, isn’t it, the way you described it. It’s not something far away and spiritual, but it’s light, easy and simple, and happy.

H: Can one be in this space and still be in business, trade stocks, be worldly? That’s the question.

Stuart: The more you go into the world, the more the world seems very, very real and mind driven because everything matters. It’s winner takes all. It’s loser and loses all. A game of monopoly. So maybe you can be in the world and really know that you are formless and not the player. Everything is in motion, in flux, everything is a vibration. As soon as there’s a me, there’s solidity. Surrendering and flowing with the stream, great. But who wants to do that more? Who wants to own that freedom to flow? Who wants to be in the constant flow? So, it’s kind of a very subtle thing isn’t it? I want to not be locked out of living a life of flow. You don’t have to suffer the solidity controlling person.

H: So there still is the person and the life that’s flowing.

Stuart: It’s kind of like the person wanting to gently manipulate consciousness. Consciously and unconsciously. I’ll be quiet, I’ll understand, I will watch teachers say the same thing, constantly.

H: I don’t know that I’m ready to disappear, I guess that’s what it comes down to.

Stuart: But you see, that again is mind saying, “If I don’t manage the flow or how I fall into the flow – I honor there is a surrender in the flow and benefit from it, I don’t dishonor that – but I don’t want to disappear. This is it, I want this existence as me, I love this character.” Understandable. “I love this character. This is my expression of consciousness.” Stay with that, “I love this character.” This character is suffering and this character wants the key to the flow and he is sad and overwhelmed by the suffering that he is going through. You notice how the silence takes over when you acknowledge the truth of what’s happening? That you don’t have to do anything in this moment. Like the acknowledgement is met? The character is stymied. The character understands, the character is in pain. That in itself is a surrender. Now do you feel some kind of vibration opening up inside?

H: Well, I noticed I’ve been sighing a lot, and then also there’s that very low level sensation in the abdomen, although it left the moment I started to mention to you.

Stuart: So what is it? What does it feel like? H: Well, now it’s relaxed. Stuart: I see. So there’s not a holding there. This is paying attention to the openness inside. This is really getting to know yourself. Open. Go there and be with it. Or, I should say, observe it. Experience the openness, how’s that?

H: It’s a kind of relaxation. Stopping the battle, the trying to get here or there. It’s a retreat.

Stuart: It’s retreating from somebody in form, looking outward to protect, to going inward step by step and opening from the inside and knowing itself as this openness. Openness, no protection; openness, no person; openness, no thoughts of right and wrong, high and low, sell or keep.

H: Thoughts are coming back about time and I need to get to the office…

Stuart: No thought is true. Emptiness is true. All thoughts try to delude you into thinking you are solid. There is a right way of doing things and a wrong way, and the thoughts are the guide to your success. All thoughts are lies. You are totally and perfectly fine before all thoughts. Therefore, you don’t have to stop them, they’ll go all by themselves.

H: How do I live with all thoughts are lies? And I know what you’re saying, at some level I know that they’re fleeting, they’re not ultimately true, there’s nothing substantial about them.

Stuart: So this is what arises. How will I live? How will I take care of my life, my finances, how will I do that. So what’s the answer to that? How will you live? Do you know how you would live knowing that all thoughts are lies and not honoring them? Do you know how you would do that?

H: No, because I haven’t lived that fully. But then always the body and other thoughts came in that said, “No, I’m real here.”

Stuart: Of course, that is the dilemma of belief. I’m not asking you to believe it, I’m giving you my understanding of it. The answer to it is, yes, I understand that, but I don’t know how, and I don’t know how I could possibly live that way. That’s your answer for now. “I don’t know.” “I don’t know if that’s possible.”

H: There have been times when I have lived it and life went on very well actually, focused on what was going on there. So when I am immersed in that way, in that dimension, there are no problems, life is great.

Stuart: That’s right, so that’s known, so that drives you to more of that, and right this moment is more doubt and more I don’t know. So that’s just the way it is. Just acknowledge what feels real and opposing the truth in the moment. It seems like I couldn’t live that way, I don’t know how. And be with that. Can you be spiritual and worldly? Can you trust that all is taken care of without you controlling it?

H: I’ve experimented with that idea. It seems like that’s true in a lot of ways because I definitely recognize a great gift or grace, not of my doing, it just seems a blessing, so to speak.

Stuart: Even when circumstances in life aren’t to your liking, they’re good. Particularly when you are in the flow, not everything always goes the way you want it, and still it’s good.

H: It’s perfect, that’s the way I look at it.

Stuart: It’s totally perfect. So it’s always a question of man battling god. Is it on my side? You see. And you see, none of it needs to be conquered, it needs to be met. There’s a great relaxation in allowing the confusion, the wanting to know, the pain, the dichotomies that cannot be solved with the mind, can’t be solved.

H: Conflicts that don’t need to be solved, they can exist as conflicts.

Stuart: Yes, because you see, as soon as you bring in the conflict, I am so solid now in all of the fights. And all of the sameness and all of the differences continue. All of this opening up started when I said, “No thought is true.” And then the flood of what feels true arises. Great! Let them be. Relax into that.